1971-S DDR FS-801

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19Lyds
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1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by 19Lyds » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:27 pm

Has anybody found any of these yet?

Image

PCGS Only has 1 graded.
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Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by tko-5 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:36 pm

Hi Lee, I have four coins listed to date on the IDDD site ( one is your coin ) is there a link so I can look at your coin close up? if you have the top pop I will list it as such as I listed you with the top pop for the 72 P peg leg, is the obverse tripled on the right bottom serifs of TR of trust? if so the obverse is from hub 3, hub 3 has produced the most amount of tripled working dies to date, if you go to the site scroll down till you get to hub 3, there are nearly 40 same looking DDO hub 3 DDOs with different mint mark placements and other markers, if you go to the site click on IDDDR-35 - is FS-801.

Tom.

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Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by SteveP » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:07 am

1) That's a beautiful DDR! Great pics.
2) I've been looking at every 71S proof that I can for the FS-801 (and for a nightcrawler, but that's another topic) - nothing yet - which is why I have a WTB post in that section. You would think that with a spread like that, one could possibly pick one out on a better eBay photo.
3) I did notice only one (yours) attributed in a PCGS holder. And, apparently, three others on IDDD. And who knows how many others in other TPG holders?
4) How did the FS-801 make it into the CPG? On the basis of the wide spread? Because of it being a DDR? ....Certainly not because they can be easily cherry picked.

-Steve Palladino
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tko-5

Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by tko-5 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:24 am

Hi Steve, The 801 listed in the CPG is my coin, sent in by Wexler, the rest is a long story, IDDD has been asked to submit 15 Ike DDO/DDR for the next cherry picker for dollar coins, wont be this next addition, but will be the next issue after. Here is a link to IDDDR-35 http://www.ikedollardoubledie.com/idddo ... 8.php#r035

Hope this helped.
Tom.

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Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by SteveP » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:10 am

Thank you for the link, Tom.
So, none found beyond EDS? Could it be that detection becomes more difficult as early as MDS?
Just trying to estimate the possible population. What was the typical production from a proof reverse die in 71? I saw in the "The Book" that ~64,000 was the reverse businees strike production in 1974. In EDS, it would be 3% of the typical production from a proof reverse die in 71, correct?
Steve Palladino

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Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by tko-5 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:03 pm

Your welcome Steve,

You wrote-So, none found beyond EDS? Could it be that detection becomes more difficult as early as MDS?
Just trying to estimate the possible population. What was the typical production from a proof reverse die in 71? I saw in the "The Book" that ~64,000 was the reverse business strike production in 1974. In EDS, it would be 3% of the typical production from a proof reverse die in 71, correct?

none found beyond EDS? Could it be that detection becomes more difficult as early as MDS?
Anything is possible, I would think not, this puppy would last beyond that, the serifs are too wide.
I suspect we may find one without a peg leg.

What was the typical production from a proof reverse die in 71? I saw in the "The Book" that ~64,000 was the reverse business strike production in 1974. In EDS, it would be 3% of the typical production from a proof reverse die in 71, correct?

response. With the proof Ike's how do we define typical? First this DDR to date is recognized as a working die DDR and I have it listed as such, to date still after some time now just 4, a collector buddy has one in a 67 D/Cam.

The Book 64,000 - OK my opinion and feel very secure with it as well, I have had this opinion for many years now, the evidents I have and continues to come in and continues to point to my work as being correct however I stay open minded but as I said to date points to - I will explane it to you in the terms of DDRs, they are all DDOs and DDRs so this is why we can work from this direction. Multiple doubled working hubs from a same source are used to make already doubled working dies resulting numerics per doubling=the working hub/working die, for instance so far IDDD has identified hub 3 as have made at least 40 working dies, I consider all the working dies made from that hub as being the most common hub doubling in this case hub tripled, hub 7 has about the same numerics 40 working dies, hub 7 has brought us dies like old reference Wexler numbers that have reclassified as working hub DDO/DDR, John also see's what I see or visa versa, some old numbers and there new numbers given from last that I know of - WDDO-022 Wiles and CPG as well - JW has it now as WWHO-WH-7 old numbers WDDO-32 and WDDO-037 and WDDO-021 and others all those working die numbers he has to date that I know of are all listed as WWHO-WH-7, WH-7 is the hub number these dies came from ( A same source ) I have them listed with there own individual die numbers as does Wiles and cherry pickers, IDDD does put all the same working dies in same group such as IDDDWH-7 and as said all the working dies associated with that hub.

There are hubs that have made very few same working dies such as hub 4, 5, 6, 8 and a few lesser known hubs, for instance this group of working hubs have produced fewer working dies then the above hub 3 and 7, far fewer in some cases, for instance lets look at hub 8, hub 8 is known for giants like WDDO-009, WDDO-010 and about 6 more working dies most of witch are only known to IDDD as I did not send Wexler or Wiles all my puppies, to date IDDD has the most known hub 8 working dies then any one else so can do see the numerics clearer.

For 1971 S Proofs I feel the best approach to figuring out how many is by using the information already known, the IDDD site for 1971 S Proof is wealthy with numerics, still far from done but you will be able to figure it out some, I have used information from many sources on numerics that will help your efforts.

Last what I call The working die doubled die, whats meant, the hub being already doubled is a transfer of image from the hub to the working die ( it has been said by other then my self these very same hub doubled dies are actually made as a result of the last hubbing of the working die ) this opinion has holes and the holes them selves tell this story, for reverse Proof DDRs and up to quintupled one I found years back and still none other, the hole, on the IDDD site on the 1971 S page in the reverse section are some 30 or more with most UN-known to the other attributors are what I call stand alone dies, many in this bunch of what is called on the IDDD site ( As of 2008 both DDO and DDRs ) these dies show the the original hub doubling with an added on the last hubbing of these working dies additional tripling etc. With this newer information maybe others will realize why I and other attributors feel the way we feel-working hub DDR verses working die DDR.

These stand alone dies to date ( Keeping in mind they are the new ones found since 2008 ) have few coins found just like that nice and wide reverse proof that Lee started the post with, there are many other real nice ones as well in this group.

I also believe that the reason so many same working dies were used is because the working dies in 1971 S Proof had issues and to a lesser degree the low relief dies of 1971, so more working dies were needed to produce the amount of proofs needed ( Reason for peg legs ) so with all this information I say to you have at it, as you see this will not be easy and I suspect you will have more questions and am happy to help in your end-ever.

Tom.

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Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by HerbHicks » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:10 pm

According to a mint letter of Jul 24, 1972, the die life of 1971 dollar coins were

obverse 100,000
reverse 120,000

proof obverse 2,500 coins produced (5,000 strikes)
proof reverse 3,500 coins produced (7,000 strikes).

Die steel used was Standard W-1, water quenched tool steel.

The next year the mint phased in a new die steel.

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Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by SteveP » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:34 am

So that would be 3500 x 0.03* = potentially 105 FS-801 coins in EDS, assuming that the FS-801 was a product of a single working die?
*0.03 = 3% (the estimated production of EDS coins in die deterioration)
Steve Palladino

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Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by 19Lyds » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:55 am

SteveP wrote:So that would be 3500 x 0.03* = potentially 105 FS-801 coins in EDS, assuming that the FS-801 was a product of a single working die?
*0.03 = 3% (the estimated production of EDS coins in die deterioration)
AND...................

Assuming that the Doubling was not spotted and the die destroyed. ANY Mint Worker with a 5x loupe would have spotted this puppy.

As for why it's in the CPG?

Simple. The article in the June 20, 2011 Coin World by John Wexler coupled with John's relationship with Ken Potter (The CPG Editor).

The die itself has been known about since 2005/2006 when it first appeared in the CONECA files but like any other Eisenhower, only a few folks actually cared and CONECA didn't have a big write up about the coin.
I cannot and will not be held responsible for my typing errors as it appears that there is a bug in the keyboard!
........I've tried on numberous occasions to fix the problme but it just keeps coming back agin and again! -L. Lydston 2008

tko-5

Re: 1971-S DDR FS-801

Post by tko-5 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:38 am

With proof Ike's there is a problem.
Lee, Yes I agree with you ( If the mint worker seen it, it would or should have been pulled ) but this leads us to this question, so where are all the doubled die's.

I have posed that question for years and to many researchers, the answers go from melts to a shoulder shrug, others have opinions such as once abrasions are done to the proof die the doubling is lost, to a degree I can run with that, I have coins in EDS to LDS with the doubling still there and identifiable and smaller then the 801, I feel that many die's did not last do to wrong relief, die fatigue of one kind of another, is why we have proof 71 S peg legs, the mint or anyone else has not explained the peg leg issue to my satisfaction.

Steve you wrote 3500 x 0.03 = about 105 coins, there are so many issues the 1971 proof die's to come up with a standered per die is almost not workable until more information comes forth.

Each die is individual, so witch die lasted and witch die did not make it through there normal strikes.
The problems the mint had for 1971 proofs must have been large, to have so many same DDO/DDR only tells me many more die's were made because of there problems.

More information per die is needed, a standered for the 71 proofs obverse die's is going to be tough to figure based on all the issues of 1971 S proofs.

The reverses are easier to figure as there are very few with good markers to prove a die number, because of the none marker issue you should be able to do your figures with reason for the reverses, keeping in mind working die's for 71 S proofs were a dime a dozen.
To date I have for 71 S proof obverses 7 hub groups, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, each hub producing X amount of working die's.
To date I have for 71 S proof reverses 5 hub groups each producing X amount of working die's.

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