DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

BillSanders

DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by BillSanders » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:02 pm

PLEASE SEE: Rob Ezerman's :
-DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD PEG LEGS and CLIPPED E.
For a summary of the markers. A full detailed article is available at:
-THE 1971-S SILVER PEG LEG IKES ( Full Article in the Numismatist).
Please post any questions for discussion you may have.
Bill

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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by Sumdunce » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:26 pm

I believe I have 26 1978-D "Peg Leg" Ikes from the same die pair.

I picked them up from a casino in Las Vegas and sent them to ANACS (for some reason one was not graded "Peg Leg"). All have seemingly same appearance but I am not an expert on die comparisons.

If you want to study a series of 26 just let me know.

I posted the results of the submission here :
http://forums.collectors.com/messagevie ... did=678708

V/R



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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by robEzerman » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:01 pm

Sumdunce!!! I missed this post until now and the corresponding posts on the PCGS Forum. My goodness!

I bet the casino bought a bag of Ikes that had one in four or one in eight peg legs. What a great haul you made!

I would be keenly interested in seeing all of those peg legs if any of them are different in any significant way from any of the others, ie, presence or absence of other clash images, die state, different abrasion patterns.

One of my quests now is to try to establish how many clashes on average were required to create a peg leg: also interested in any peg leg that shows signs of additional clashes. Rob
Now is the time to cherry Ikes. Lots of fruit still on the trees but don't wait too long. Rob Ezerman

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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by Sumdunce » Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:05 am

The bag was running 65% peg legs. All were 1978-D and all had sharp reeding so I knew it had set in the vault quite a while.

I wanted to get more later but the cash cage boss got mad that I was taking too many. Knowing that they don't like to give out these (if they have them) unless you are a customer, I brought a $40.00 slot ticket to the counter and asked for them. I believe the boss saw how many the cashier was collecting from the back room and said "No more!". Had I known it was going to be a one shot deal I would have got a few $100.00 chips off the blackjack table and got em that way. Later a coworker's daughter who lives in Las Vegas got me another 130 Ikes but they were 1976 T2 and had nothing special.

Here (http://forums.collectors.com/messagevie ... did=672523)is the original post on PCGS forum where I mentioned finding them.

You already saw one in my DIVA submission. Tomorrow I will go through the rest of them (they are buried in the bottom of my safe) and check if there are any differences in the dies used to press them.

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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by Sumdunce » Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:23 pm

I just got done checking the 25 I have in hand and they all are from the same obverse die. The reverse die did not have a decent marker which was available to view across multiple coins so I abandoned trying to locate one. The obverse however, had an abrasion line which started next to the "T" and ran through the "Y" in "LIBERTY", which made it easy to tell they were from the same die.

All have the remnants of "hair lip" and common abrasion lines in protected areas (e.g. base of neck). There were no additional damage areas and die metal fatigue was not noticeable which leads me to believe they were all struck rather close together during a production run.

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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by robEzerman » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:08 am

Sumdunce, thanks for that report. Fits like a glove.

Here are three pictures, the peg leg, the Hair Lip, and what I think are Annealling marks on the lunar surface. Rob
Attachments
DSCN7871.JPG
DSCN7868.JPG
DSCN7867.JPG
Now is the time to cherry Ikes. Lots of fruit still on the trees but don't wait too long. Rob Ezerman

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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by Sumdunce » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:21 am

Good catch on the reverse marker. I was looking for abrasion lines and did not notice the patches of different texture across the moon.

They do all share that same pattern.

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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by robEzerman » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:28 am

Sumdunce, are the lines different, different dings present on the reverse of most of your's? That's my bet and if so we have an elegent look into the appearance of "Annealing marks" and how remarkably they can resemble "bag damage". Rob
Now is the time to cherry Ikes. Lots of fruit still on the trees but don't wait too long. Rob Ezerman

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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by Sumdunce » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:56 am

Rob,

I thought you meant unintended annealing on the die which stripped some frost from the moon.

Major brain fart on my behalf as the planchets are all annealed to soften them for strike.

The moon has patches of less frost in and around the craters which is what I was noting. All the coins have similiar reduced frost in protected areas.

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Re: DIE-ABRASION DIE-STATE CLAD “PEG LEGS” and “CLIPPED E”

Post by robEzerman » Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:56 am

LaMont, wars have been started with ambiguous communications sharper than mine have been on your 78-D Ike! And you have raised an interesting question.

First, may I make ammends by clarifying my remarks? By Annealing Marks I mean the plethora of dings and scratches over much of the lunar surface ot your Ike. I first thought the reverse die was cracking up but my scope showed me all the lines (marks) were incuse, hence either bag damage or annealing marks. Bag marks made little sense as the damage is mostly localized to the lunar surface (and harder to see because it's a busy device, on the Eagle), a slightly raised area of the coin that would have slightly less strike pressure and thus annealing marks would be more likely to survive the strike. The marks seemed quite random but their prominence was interesting and some were long, like short hair-lines, indicative of "slide-hit" damage one normally asociates with bag damage.

"Annealing marks" has replaces "Planchet Chatter" as our preferred term for the dings commonly seen on Ikes and about which I've written (see home page). "Chatter" has a technical use best seen on some IHC's with a cascade of multiple strikes. Mike Diamond wrote me that "Annealing Marks" is an accepted term for the innumerable "dings one sees on both sides of Ikes a bit inside the rim and on major devices, both areas of relatively lower strike pressure so the dings incurred by planchets as they slowly transverse the baffled rotating annealing drum tend not to be struck out.

Second, may I restate my question? If these are annealing marks on the lunar surface (see additional photo), and since your large group of these peg leg 78-D Ikes probably came from the same Mint-shipped bag of Ikes, it's likely that most of your other peg legs will show much the same pattern of randonly variable hits and dings across lunar surfaces. That's what I was clumsily asking you to verify or shoot down.

Now, your observation of loss of frosting in some protected areas on the moon. This opens my eyes (and I thank you for that) that the lunar surface iindeed tends to have a textured surface consistent with some degree of frosting. Frosting wears down (wears off) with advancing die state and wears off first in the presence of the greatest surface movement of die metal which on the moon would be in the immediate vicinity of the craters walls. Why such die wear sometimes takes the fork in the road to die flow lines and sometimes to smooth and shiny I do not understand, but that's another matter.

Love this discussion! Rob
Attachments
DSCN7871.JPG
DSCN7870.JPG
DSCN7872.JPG
Now is the time to cherry Ikes. Lots of fruit still on the trees but don't wait too long. Rob Ezerman

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