Micro S

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SteveP
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Re: Micro S

Post by SteveP » Sun May 19, 2013 9:10 pm

To help interpret the relative scarcity of the 74S SP micro-s in light of now knowing that there were at least two dies responsible for their production (see prior post), a couple of questions:
Proof dies were used for 2,000-2,500 coins, correct?
Is it known how many re-treatments were done during this production from a single die? Was the decision to re-treat qualitative (the coin produced had lost its cameo), or quantitative (the die systematically re-treated every X number of coins produced)?

Given that we have some evidence to suggest that, at least in part, die polishing re-treatments may have helped the micro-s to evolve, then hypothetically, the micro-s was only a fraction (after x number of die polishing re-treatment cycles) of these two known dies' 4,000-5,000 total production
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Re: Micro S

Post by 1872Hokie » Sun May 19, 2013 9:56 pm

Steve thanks for all the leg work you have done on this topic. As more of these come to light I am excited to see what we find out.
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Re: Micro S

Post by HerbHicks » Sun May 19, 2013 11:09 pm

<<Proof dies were used for 2,000-2,500 coins, correct?>>

The 1971 S experience for proofs was 2,500 for the obverse and 3,500 for the reverse using the old die steel. 1974 would be the new die steel which was supposed to last longer. However it was reported proof Ike dollar coins in 1974 averaged 2,000 coins per die.
There was no breakdown in this case for obverse versus reverse.
Last edited by HerbHicks on Tue May 21, 2013 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Micro S

Post by SteveP » Mon May 20, 2013 12:38 am

HerbHicks wrote:The 1971 S experience for proofs was 2,500 for the obverse and 3,500 for the reverse using the old die steel. 1974 would be the new die steel which was supposed to last longer. However it was reported proof coins in 1974 averaged 2,000 coins per die.
There was no breakdown in this case for obverse versus reverse.
Thank you, Herb. That makes an estimated 4,000 coins from the two known dies (there may be more, but none identified yet).

If the starting point was a MMS1 MM, punched slightly heavier to the south, and die polish treatments contributed to the evolution of the micro-s produced from these two dies, then the number of polishing re-treatments would,
a) manifest in step-wise (not continuous) evolution*, and
b) might allow us to better estimate what fraction of 4,000 coins were actually produced with a micro-s

*a die polishing re-treatment would result in production of x number of coins with near identical evolution of the MM. Each batch, on a micro scale, could theoretically be distinguished from this last. If the re-treatments were as frequent as, say every 50 coins, then for a given die, there would be 40 batches of differently (on a micro scale) evolved MMs. If re-treatments were less frequent, say every 200 coins, then for a given die, there would be 10 batches. In the first case, the evolution would be more subtle and appear more continuous than in the second case. In the latter case, there would be a minimum of 200 micro-s coins produced in the last batch. Working backward, there would be 200 more micro-s coins for each batch produced, as long as the die treatment raised the field into the upper loop of the S, but with each batch going backward having less field occupying the upper loop.

I have two CP micro-s coins from the same die, but at different evolutionary states - one with greater field occupation of the upper loop than the other. This indicates at least two batches of x number of micro-s coins from the same die. I have identified a third coin from the same die (held by a different owner). It would be interesting to compare that third to the two others to see if it came from still another production batch.

Similarly, It would be nice to compare Bryan's SP micro-s originating from the same die as the one that I have in my possession for their evolutionary states.

Thus, my questions:
Is it known how many re-treatments were done during this production from a single die? Was the decision to re-treat qualitative (the coin produced had lost its cameo), or quantitative (the die systematically re-treated every X number of coins produced)?
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Re: Micro S

Post by 1872Hokie » Mon May 20, 2013 11:55 am

Out of my own curiosity, how many of you out there have one or more 74-S SP Micro-S coins in your collection? I would think that since this is a known variety, the members of this website would have more than a few tucked away.
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Re: Micro S

Post by HerbHicks » Tue May 21, 2013 11:23 pm

I have now clarified that my 1974 proof average die life of 2,000 was for Ike dollars.

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Re: Micro S

Post by jaceravone » Thu May 23, 2013 11:24 pm

Bryan asked me to attach mine. Bad close up pics, but I hope they help.
1974S Silver MMS1 Slab.JPG
1974S Silver MMS1 - obv.JPG
1974S Silver MMS1 - rev.JPG
Ike MM1.jpg
Ike MM2.jpg
Ike MM3.jpg

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Re: Micro S

Post by SteveP » Fri May 24, 2013 1:00 am

Thank you for posting the photos. I'll try to analyze them a bit more over the next day or so. On first glance, it looks like a match to MMP1. It would be helpful if you could post a pic coned down to the rim, the 7, the MM, the bust and FG in the same shot.
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Re: Micro S

Post by 1872Hokie » Fri May 24, 2013 8:27 am

jaceravone wrote:Bryan asked me to attach mine. Bad close up pics, but I hope they help.
Jay, thanks for adding your pictures and helping out with the research!

Steve, of my two coins, which is what we are calling MMP1 and MMP2? Thanks!
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Re: Micro S

Post by SteveP » Fri May 24, 2013 10:44 am

I put the MMP lines on Jay's photo this morning. It looks like a MMP1. (my previously posted reference photos below) However, I cannot say it is a MMP1 with certainty with the photos provided. I can say the same thing about Lee's posted micro s photos: http://forum2.ikegroup.info/viewtopic.p ... newp#p6853 - I did the MMP lines, it looks like a MMP1, but I need a better photo for any certainty. As it stands, we have nothing more than two possible 74S SP MMP1 micro s coins.

Jay, Lee, if you can post a photo of your micro s coned down to the rim, the 7, the MM, the bust and FG in the same shot, it would help allow my to place the MMP line with greater certainty and add your coins to the population #s.
Steve, of my two coins, which is what we are calling MMP1 and MMP2? Thanks!
Bryan, you have one of each 8-) I'm not sure which is in which holder, but I'll be able to get you that info when I get your coins in hand.

On a related subject, it appears that Jay's and Lee's coins have the same amount of field appearing within the top loop of the S, indicating that they are likely not only from the same die, but also the same post-polishing die state batch!
Attachments
brian micro s 1.png
74S SP MMP1
brian micro s 3.png
74S SP MMP2
Steve Palladino

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