Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

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ilikeikes
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by ilikeikes »

Can someone in here help me clarify a definition of the True "Prototype" IKE....I understand the "Nixon" IKE is not classified as a "Prototype"...so, curious what is, and what is not, under the guidelines...I'd be happy finding either of those 2 types. ;) .Does Dr. Wiles have the final final say, under the group guidelines?
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AndyO
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by AndyO »

That...is a long, long...., long - and still hotly debated - story. Me personally, I could care less about it's title classification. I'm good with prototype if that's the call. I'm also good with "slightly weird Ike that doesn't quite match other Ikes and seems to have some of the matchings of the 1970 galvano and 71S proof, but not all and therefore seems to potentially be some early exploratory strike" name. Prototype seem to roll off the tongue better...

It exists, therefore...it is.
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19Lyds
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by 19Lyds »

Appendix A of the Authoritative Reference on Eisenhower Dollars, Page 180 in the 1st Edition and Page 193 in the 2nd Edition, in a letter from the Department of the Treasury dated January 25, 1971, specifically refers to "Trial Strikes" of specially prepared dies with varying relief to test the design for striking qualities and future production. It states that several different obverse and reverse dies were used and refers to them as "Prototype Dies". It also states that 40% Silver blanks were used for the testing.

Image

So far, what has been stated perfectly fits both mine and rtc535's as well as Charles Chatham's coins. Mixed relief and completely different Obverse Design varieties sharing a common Reverse Design.

It is "presumed" that, given the audience and testing performed, that the dies and resulting coins were all handled by a single individual to feed the blanks into the press and to actually perform the strike with specific pressures. All work done by hand to protect the coins for examination and presentation to the committee observing the trial striking process.

Additionally, all 3 coins found so far have clear and distinct definition which is previously only found on "proof" coins, which receive special handling and specially polished planchets and dies. However, none of the 3 coins have the typical Proof Mirrored finishes. They do not have any "cameo finish" but do have evidence of fine die polishing lines.

The closest finish to these 3 coins that currently exists are the 1964 SMS coins that share the relief and die polish lines of the prototype coins in addition to the specially prepared business strike coins made for the Smithsonian and the National Numismatic Collection. Had the designs been of ODV-001 and RDV-001, I'd expect that these three were NNC rejects. (See the Aug 5th , 2013 edition of Coin World)

Now, the Letter in the Appendix also states that: "I<sic> accordance with regulations, all of the prototype trial strikes must and will be destroyed by the Director's Committee."

It is presumed that, as of the writing of this letter, these prototype trial strikes still existed and that they "would" ("must and will") be destroyed. Keep in mind that the above letter was written as a promotional piece for one of if not all of the Coin Magazines as the public was eager see the new dollar coins and the Treasury Department was wanting these to succeed. They were to be released in 1971 yet nothing existed so the next best thing was a letter outlining what was currently happening with the coins.

Given the uniqueness of these 3 coins, I cannot honestly believe that the prototype coins were destroyed as they should have been simply because these are unlike ANY known proof or business strike IKE that was released to the public.

The "origins" of these three coins is still "unproven" and only "here say" that they actually came in Blue Packs. I know this statement is going to piss Charles off when he reads it but the only thing Charles knows for sure is that he owns 1 of the 3.
Maybe I should not have said that but then it is my belief which was formed "as" the facts unfolded.

At any rate, that's what a prototype is or at least, that is what my take on them is from what I've read.

Did I know what I had when I found it? Hell No! I had to call in the experts to tell me what it was. I just knew it was special as it was "eye obvious".
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by shasta7 »

Hi 19Lyds....

Nice article... liked the way you explained it... :-)

rtc535
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by rtc535 »

It is "presumed" that, given the audience and testing performed, that the dies and resulting coins were all handled by a single individual to feed the blanks into the press and to actually perform the strike with specific pressures. All work done by hand to protect the coins for examination and presentation to the committee observing the trial striking process.
Um, well, if you look at my coin, they may have been hand feed, but seem to have been dropped into bins after striking. The rim gauge on my coin on the neck indicates another coin(porbably another Ike) fell on it from a good hieght, Id say ~meter. Plus, there a few minor bag marks on mine. And, if I had to WAG, the dark spot on he highest feature(Ikes ckeek) looks to my like it may have been in a tube at some point.
It is presumed that, as of the writing of this letter, these prototype trial strikes still existed and that they "would" ("must and will") be destroyed. Keep in mind that the above letter was written as a promotional piece for one of if not all of the Coin Magazines as the public was eager see the new dollar coins and the Treasury Department was wanting these to succeed. They were to be released in 1971 yet nothing existed so the next best thing was a letter outlining what was currently happening with the coins.

Given the uniqueness of these 3 coins, I cannot honestly believe that the prototype coins were destroyed as they should have been simply because these are unlike ANY known proof or business strike IKE that was released to the public.
Right, thats completely correct. Now, why they weren't destroyed and ended up in Blue Packs is the real mystery....
The "origins" of these three coins is still "unproven" and only "here say" that they actually came in Blue Packs. I know this statement is going to piss Charles off when he reads it but the only thing Charles knows for sure is that he owns 1 of the 3.
Maybe I should not have said that but then it is my belief which was formed "as" the facts unfolded.
Well, I believe they were in Blue Packs. Why would they have stayed hiddem from the sight of knowledgable collectors for so long ie better part of 40 years? If someone took the coins from the mint and handed them to someone else, more than likely that person would have known it's somthing special and these would have been un-earthed much sooner! But, theve been laguishing in Blue Packs hidden from sight. Remember, as in ny first post, there were nearly 6.9million of these make. Im starting to believe alot of these are still un-opened, waiting to be opened. Ill WAG agian and say there are still 30% of that 6.9million are still un-opened.

I still think they ended up in Blue Packs by accident ie So, did someone who didn't know what they were, was cleaning a desk and found a small box of these Ike's, looked at them and said, "these look like some BU silver Ike's, here John (maybe a worker at the mint), run these over to the packaging facility and get them run through"?????

rtc535

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by rtc535 »

Um,
In regards to the Mint's Apendix A document, what are "collars" and "upset dies"? Why do upset dies need different shapes?

Thanks,
RussC

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by SteveP »

rtc535 wrote:Um,
In regards to the Mint's Apendix A document, what are "collars" and "upset dies"? Why do upset dies need different shapes?
The collar imparts the reeded edge, I believe.
The document says "upset blanks", not upset dies. Referring to planchets?
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by HerbHicks »

I will also assume upset blank means upset planchet.
This is a blank planchet with the milled rim added.

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by 19Lyds »

rtc535 wrote:
It is "presumed" that, given the audience and testing performed, that the dies and resulting coins were all handled by a single individual to feed the blanks into the press and to actually perform the strike with specific pressures. All work done by hand to protect the coins for examination and presentation to the committee observing the trial striking process.
Um, well, if you look at my coin, they may have been hand feed, but seem to have been dropped into bins after striking. The rim gauge on my coin on the neck indicates another coin(porbably another Ike) fell on it from a good hieght, Id say ~meter. Plus, there a few minor bag marks on mine. And, if I had to WAG, the dark spot on he highest feature(Ikes ckeek) looks to my like it may have been in a tube at some point.
It is presumed that, as of the writing of this letter, these prototype trial strikes still existed and that they "would" ("must and will") be destroyed. Keep in mind that the above letter was written as a promotional piece for one of if not all of the Coin Magazines as the public was eager see the new dollar coins and the Treasury Department was wanting these to succeed. They were to be released in 1971 yet nothing existed so the next best thing was a letter outlining what was currently happening with the coins.

Given the uniqueness of these 3 coins, I cannot honestly believe that the prototype coins were destroyed as they should have been simply because these are unlike ANY known proof or business strike IKE that was released to the public.
Right, thats completely correct. Now, why they weren't destroyed and ended up in Blue Packs is the real mystery....
The "origins" of these three coins is still "unproven" and only "here say" that they actually came in Blue Packs. I know this statement is going to piss Charles off when he reads it but the only thing Charles knows for sure is that he owns 1 of the 3.
Maybe I should not have said that but then it is my belief which was formed "as" the facts unfolded.
Well, I believe they were in Blue Packs. Why would they have stayed hiddem from the sight of knowledgable collectors for so long ie better part of 40 years? If someone took the coins from the mint and handed them to someone else, more than likely that person would have known it's somthing special and these would have been un-earthed much sooner! But, theve been laguishing in Blue Packs hidden from sight. Remember, as in ny first post, there were nearly 6.9million of these make. Im starting to believe alot of these are still un-opened, waiting to be opened. Ill WAG agian and say there are still 30% of that 6.9million are still un-opened.

I still think they ended up in Blue Packs by accident ie So, did someone who didn't know what they were, was cleaning a desk and found a small box of these Ike's, looked at them and said, "these look like some BU silver Ike's, here John (maybe a worker at the mint), run these over to the packaging facility and get them run through"?????

rtc535
There is no absolute proof that these in fact came out of blue packs. Only here say and then there's Chuck.

Mine was raw and in a tube as I remember asking the seller to put it in a flip instead of with the rest of the coins I was buying.

Why weren't they destroyed? Who knows. I just know that many IKE's are passed over simply "because" they are IKE's. The 1973-S CnClad Business Strike I got at the bank several years ago is just an example. It's an IKE so it just got passed off until someone finally recognized it for what it was.

As for the gouge on the neck of your coin? Its anybodies guess and anything I say are just pure speculation.
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19Lyds
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by 19Lyds »

SteveP wrote:
rtc535 wrote:Um,
In regards to the Mint's Apendix A document, what are "collars" and "upset dies"? Why do upset dies need different shapes?
The collar imparts the reeded edge, I believe.
The document says "upset blanks", not upset dies. Referring to planchets?
Correct. The "upsetting mill" is what creates the raised rim. Without a raised rim, coins would wear out very quickly since there is nothing protecting the devices of the coin.
I cannot and will not be held responsible for my typing errors as it appears that there is a bug in the keyboard!
........I've tried on numberous occasions to fix the problme but it just keeps coming back agin and again! -L. Lydston 2008

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