Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

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coinkat
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by coinkat »

Any word on the grade? I hope it goes well

rtc535
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by rtc535 »

Ok,
It graded and shipped today (5-19). Its should show up 5-21. Its not on PCGS's site yet. Any guess's on grade before then? (I know what it is!).

Rtc535

rtc535
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by rtc535 »

Well,
Its up on the website. Pretty good grade, SP66. I speculated above that I though 66 would have been too high, but it looks really good. Even the rim gouge on the neck isn't so noticeable now. Its not posted in the population area, but is in the Coin Facts section.

So pic:
Image

Rtc535

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by coinkat »

congrats

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19Lyds
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by 19Lyds »

rtc535 wrote:Well,
Its up on the website. Pretty good grade, SP66. I speculated above that I though 66 would have been too high, but it looks really good. Even the rim gouge on the neck isn't so noticeable now. Its not posted in the population area, but is in the Coin Facts section.

So pic:
Image

Rtc535
Wow! That sure is a pretty coin! Congrats!
I cannot and will not be held responsible for my typing errors as it appears that there is a bug in the keyboard!
........I've tried on numberous occasions to fix the problme but it just keeps coming back agin and again! -L. Lydston 2008

BrianVaile
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by BrianVaile »

What a beautiful coin......I am envious!
Congrats on finding such a coin! :D

Happy Hunting!
Brian

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AndyO
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by AndyO »

Ehh, it's OK I guess...
Authorized CAC and QA dealer

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by AndyO »

Just kidding. That's a sharp coin. I like the ever so subtle color that comes off in the picture.
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rtc535
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by rtc535 »

Hi gents,
Um, first, I guess all the pics I posted will go away at the end of the month, as Comcast is ending its site hosting service at the end of the month. Haven't deceided where to go yet with pics for internet posting, but will think about that more later.

Second, I was reading about the story/history of the 1933 St. Gaudiens. That's to me speaks to how these prototypes got out of the mint. While the 1933 St. Gaudiens is a more extreme example, it still speaks to the speculation of why I don't think these were walked out nefariously. In the St. Guadiens example, the conspirator(s) Ira Swift sold coins right away, then was caught almost immediately, but was never convicted of anything. That still speaks to the reasoning that these are in Blue packs, as it took 30 years to show up. I find it really interesting in that story also he left 10 1933's in a safety deposit box till he died, as he knew he could never sell them again w/o getting caught!!!! What a major find for the widow/children to all of sudden come into ~$62million worth of coins just like that...what luck. To that point, I don't think that those 1933's are the most expensive coin out there (at least so far the highest coin ever sold at auction). Aren't there like 3 of the first silver dollars ever minted (in like the 1780's) that if ever came to auction would crush any previous record?

Third, I was over at PCGS looking at stuff randomly, and stumbled on the write up of the '64 Kennedy SMS's:

"Jaime Hernandez: Plain and simple, the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half's are not suppose to exist. However, there are about a dozen or so examples which have surfaced in the past 15 years. Therefore, it is the scarcest non error or variety Kennedy Half Dollar in existence.

The 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half dollars display very unique characteristics unseen on any other coins of the era. First of all, the strike is very sharp as it displays very clear details on both the obverse and the reverse. The coins also contain a smooth satin like appearance with the rims being very square and sharp. There are die polishing lines throughout the coins surfaces. These coins also tend to lack contact marks unlike business strike coins, indicating that they were struck and handled under extreme care. Furthermore, the coins do not display the reflective surfaces that are usually encountered on proof coins.

These 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half’s were first noticed in 1993 when they appeared in a Stacks auction. Apparently, the coins originated from Lester Merkin who was a well known coin dealer. His collection was later consigned to Stacks. It is also believed that Lester Merkin initially acquired the coins from a Mint employee or Eva Adams who was former Director of the U.S. Mint.

Coincidentally, there are also other Special Strike coins in different denominations that exist for this date. These include the Lincoln cent, Jefferson nickel, Roosevelt dime and the Washington quarter. There is also about one or two dozen sets believed to exist for each of these denominations.

In numismatics there are also other coins which are not supposed to exist, such as the 1933 Saint Gaudens double eagles and the 1913 Liberty nickels. It also took years before some of these coins ever surfaced, and the entire circumstances in how they eluded the U.S Mint is also a complete mystery. Although, the 1964 Special Strike coins are not necessarily in the same league as other classic rarities, they do tend to have the same mysterious history behind them. The fact there are also very little examples of these coins in existence and much cheaper than other legendary coins, only makes them much more desirable to a lot of collectors.

As of September 2009, PCGS has only certified 12 examples of the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half Dollars in all grades combined. In conclusion, this also makes it the scarcest of all the 1964 Special Strike coin denominations produced."

And, this at PCGS on the SMS '64 Penny:

"1964 Special Strike Coins

There are many different theories on why the 1964 SMS coins were produced. These coins could have been produced as prototypes for the 1965 to 1967 SMS coins. The 1964 SMS coins could have also been produced as introductory pieces, possibly even intended to include a 1964-D Peace dollar. Furthermore, it is believed these SMS coins came into existence somehow through the involvement of Eva Adams, U.S. Mint Director at the time. After Eva Adams passed away, her estate was sold off and well-recognized dealer and auctioneer Lester Merkin purchased many of the coins from her estate. Lester Merkin's collection was then sold in a Stack's auction in the early 1990s, including some, if not all, of the known 1964 SMS coins."

What the hell, I didn't know this existed!!!! This puts a whole new spin on the pricing of these coins. There are similar write ups on the quarter/dime/nickel/penny!!!

It's now obvious that Eva Adams walked these '64 prototype strikes out of the mint. But of course, you can do that with impunity when your the Director! With that said, she never tried to sell them, again, she died with them in storage then sold to Merkin after the death from her estate. Its very obvious these SMS's are early prototype runs of the '64 sets. It's also very obvious she knew the value of them by the mere fact she took them from the mint!

Back to valuation, most all of these coins were auctioned by HA from the initial sell off of Merkin's collection. Of course the bigger coin of the Kennedy half is more telling of the value of Ike prototype. So, the '64 SMS67 sold at HA in '10 for $16k (pop 6). Funny that 1 year earlier a '64 SMS68 only sold for $10.3k, oh my, that's great appreciation. So we believe that the Ike's are worth more than the Kennedys as their a real silver dollar? Plus, that 5 years old now, so add maybe $3-4k, so $20k is a real good round #!!!

Oh ya, by the way, there has been subsequent offers on the SMS67 Kennedy @ HA of $19k+! That in my mind make the Ike's a possible $23k-25k coin!

So, Im going to contact Jamie @ PCGS to see if we can get a write up for the IKE Prototypes! Feel free to contact him to flag him on the proper petagree of these coins.

rtc535

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19Lyds
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by 19Lyds »

rtc535 wrote:Hi gents,
Um, first, I guess all the pics I posted will go away at the end of the month, as Comcast is ending its site hosting service at the end of the month. Haven't deceided where to go yet with pics for internet posting, but will think about that more later.

Second, I was reading about the story/history of the 1933 St. Gaudiens. That's to me speaks to how these prototypes got out of the mint. While the 1933 St. Gaudiens is a more extreme example, it still speaks to the speculation of why I don't think these were walked out nefariously. In the St. Guadiens example, the conspirator(s) Ira Swift sold coins right away, then was caught almost immediately, but was never convicted of anything. That still speaks to the reasoning that these are in Blue packs, as it took 30 years to show up. I find it really interesting in that story also he left 10 1933's in a safety deposit box till he died, as he knew he could never sell them again w/o getting caught!!!! What a major find for the widow/children to all of sudden come into ~$62million worth of coins just like that...what luck. To that point, I don't think that those 1933's are the most expensive coin out there (at least so far the highest coin ever sold at auction). Aren't there like 3 of the first silver dollars ever minted (in like the 1780's) that if ever came to auction would crush any previous record?

Third, I was over at PCGS looking at stuff randomly, and stumbled on the write up of the '64 Kennedy SMS's:

"Jaime Hernandez: Plain and simple, the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half's are not suppose to exist. However, there are about a dozen or so examples which have surfaced in the past 15 years. Therefore, it is the scarcest non error or variety Kennedy Half Dollar in existence.

The 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half dollars display very unique characteristics unseen on any other coins of the era. First of all, the strike is very sharp as it displays very clear details on both the obverse and the reverse. The coins also contain a smooth satin like appearance with the rims being very square and sharp. There are die polishing lines throughout the coins surfaces. These coins also tend to lack contact marks unlike business strike coins, indicating that they were struck and handled under extreme care. Furthermore, the coins do not display the reflective surfaces that are usually encountered on proof coins.

These 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half’s were first noticed in 1993 when they appeared in a Stacks auction. Apparently, the coins originated from Lester Merkin who was a well known coin dealer. His collection was later consigned to Stacks. It is also believed that Lester Merkin initially acquired the coins from a Mint employee or Eva Adams who was former Director of the U.S. Mint.

Coincidentally, there are also other Special Strike coins in different denominations that exist for this date. These include the Lincoln cent, Jefferson nickel, Roosevelt dime and the Washington quarter. There is also about one or two dozen sets believed to exist for each of these denominations.

In numismatics there are also other coins which are not supposed to exist, such as the 1933 Saint Gaudens double eagles and the 1913 Liberty nickels. It also took years before some of these coins ever surfaced, and the entire circumstances in how they eluded the U.S Mint is also a complete mystery. Although, the 1964 Special Strike coins are not necessarily in the same league as other classic rarities, they do tend to have the same mysterious history behind them. The fact there are also very little examples of these coins in existence and much cheaper than other legendary coins, only makes them much more desirable to a lot of collectors.

As of September 2009, PCGS has only certified 12 examples of the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half Dollars in all grades combined. In conclusion, this also makes it the scarcest of all the 1964 Special Strike coin denominations produced."

And, this at PCGS on the SMS '64 Penny:

"1964 Special Strike Coins

There are many different theories on why the 1964 SMS coins were produced. These coins could have been produced as prototypes for the 1965 to 1967 SMS coins. The 1964 SMS coins could have also been produced as introductory pieces, possibly even intended to include a 1964-D Peace dollar. Furthermore, it is believed these SMS coins came into existence somehow through the involvement of Eva Adams, U.S. Mint Director at the time. After Eva Adams passed away, her estate was sold off and well-recognized dealer and auctioneer Lester Merkin purchased many of the coins from her estate. Lester Merkin's collection was then sold in a Stack's auction in the early 1990s, including some, if not all, of the known 1964 SMS coins."

What the hell, I didn't know this existed!!!! This puts a whole new spin on the pricing of these coins. There are similar write ups on the quarter/dime/nickel/penny!!!

It's now obvious that Eva Adams walked these '64 prototype strikes out of the mint. But of course, you can do that with impunity when your the Director! With that said, she never tried to sell them, again, she died with them in storage then sold to Merkin after the death from her estate. Its very obvious these SMS's are early prototype runs of the '64 sets. It's also very obvious she knew the value of them by the mere fact she took them from the mint!

Back to valuation, most all of these coins were auctioned by HA from the initial sell off of Merkin's collection. Of course the bigger coin of the Kennedy half is more telling of the value of Ike prototype. So, the '64 SMS67 sold at HA in '10 for $16k (pop 6). Funny that 1 year earlier a '64 SMS68 only sold for $10.3k, oh my, that's great appreciation. So we believe that the Ike's are worth more than the Kennedys as their a real silver dollar? Plus, that 5 years old now, so add maybe $3-4k, so $20k is a real good round #!!!

Oh ya, by the way, there has been subsequent offers on the SMS67 Kennedy @ HA of $19k+! That in my mind make the Ike's a possible $23k-25k coin!

So, Im going to contact Jamie @ PCGS to see if we can get a write up for the IKE Prototypes! Feel free to contact him to flag him on the proper petagree of these coins.

rtc535
As for contacting Jamie, understand that these coins could very well be special strikes solely for National Publications such a s CoinAge.

I have a magazine which shows an IKE Dollar that looks remarkably similar to what we are referring to as Prototypes.
CoinAge June 71 First Proof Dollar Since-03A.jpg
Close Up Scans of the above supposed "Proof":
CoinAge June 71 First Proof Dollar Since-04D.jpg
CoinAge June 71 First Proof Dollar Since-05D.jpg
The point being that calling these Prototype's is undocumented speculation since the designs are new. However, it is a known fact that the US Mint prepared "Special Strikes" for coins destined for the National Numismatic Collection as noted by the Aug 5th 2013 edition of Coin World.
20130805 Coin World Smithsonian NNC Coins-01.jpg
Bottom Line, WE nor anybody else knows exactly what these pieces might be or where they have been for so many years.
I cannot and will not be held responsible for my typing errors as it appears that there is a bug in the keyboard!
........I've tried on numberous occasions to fix the problme but it just keeps coming back agin and again! -L. Lydston 2008

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