Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

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HerbHicks
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by HerbHicks »

I remember many early pictures - oops many copies of the same picture that looked like the Ike prototype. They showed a thumbprint on them. I think the first Redbook illustration was one of them. It was replaced the next year. I tried to get a copy from Whitman and/or the mint, but no trace of it could be found.

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by rtc535 »

19Lyds wrote: As for contacting Jamie, understand that these coins could very well be special strikes solely for National Publications such a s CoinAge.

I have a magazine which shows an IKE Dollar that looks remarkably similar to what we are referring to as Prototypes.

The point being that calling these Prototype's is undocumented speculation since the designs are new. However, it is a known fact that the US Mint prepared "Special Strikes" for coins destined for the National Numismatic Collection as noted by the Aug 5th 2013 edition of Coin World.

Bottom Line, WE nor anybody else knows exactly what these pieces might be or where they have been for so many years.
Ok, sure, I see it as 2 things can be equally true. The strikes are prototype strikes, as the article from the Ike book states to test die strength and durability and coin asthetics. But, it may also be true these coins were struck for advertising as they were the coins they had lying around at the time for promotional purposes. They could have taken these dies and acid etched and polished the fields and made proofs from them also, but they did not (I speculate they didn't want to take the time to do that for these few coins).

As for the coins at the NNC, those are still from the '50s to '79. Again, I think you making my point for me. These are dates that the mint was still doing test/prototype strikes the old fashion way ie hand working dies before modern machining of dies. Now you just use a CAD generated pic and the 6-axis CNC bangs out your dies, its that easy now. Um, I haven't seen any of these kinds of SMS/prototype/test strikes after the '70s. The mint still does test strikes, but I guess they call them "mules", like the Sacagawea mules with the Washington quarter obverse. But those coins don't look like these with fine polish lines and hand worked details and fields.

And to make my final point, Lets presume your right, and the coins were sent to CoinWorld for promotional purposes. The mint knows these are special coins and should never leave the mint!!!! Your telling me they just left them there for the magazine to do with what they want??? I find that highly un-probable. And even if they did, your also telling me that the magazine experts didn't know these coins where special and not like business or proof strikes???? Really! Then your also inferring that the magazine experts just tossed the coins out for you and myself to find in a pile of 100 other Ikes at a coin show or dumb luck in a Ebay auction. Mmmmm, all three of those things happening is very un-likely to me. Unless you have information otherwise, maybe the magazine photographer went the mint to shoot the photos for the layout? That may be as likely as the mint sending known prototypes to the magazine. I guess I error on the side of the guys at CoinWorld having a bit more knowledge about rare coins, and would see these coins for what they would have been worth, even in the '70s not to just throw them out on whim.

Now, Im not so naive either about the mint letting known valuable coins out when it suits there needs. The Nixon presentation Ikes are an example, and as is the designer of the Sacagawea coins. They gave her (if memory serves) 2000 special mint mark coins for her winning design. Well shes cashing in on those coins big time, as there quite valuable now. I believe shell make ~$1.5 million on those when its all said and done.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Nobody questioned my pricing model. Guess that stands up, why not!
rtc535

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by AndyO »

Oh boy, I smell a mild case of CCS brewing...
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by 19Lyds »

19Lyds wrote:
rtc535 wrote:Hi gents,
Um, first, I guess all the pics I posted will go away at the end of the month, as Comcast is ending its site hosting service at the end of the month. Haven't deceided where to go yet with pics for internet posting, but will think about that more later.

Second, I was reading about the story/history of the 1933 St. Gaudiens. That's to me speaks to how these prototypes got out of the mint. While the 1933 St. Gaudiens is a more extreme example, it still speaks to the speculation of why I don't think these were walked out nefariously. In the St. Guadiens example, the conspirator(s) Ira Swift sold coins right away, then was caught almost immediately, but was never convicted of anything. That still speaks to the reasoning that these are in Blue packs, as it took 30 years to show up. I find it really interesting in that story also he left 10 1933's in a safety deposit box till he died, as he knew he could never sell them again w/o getting caught!!!! What a major find for the widow/children to all of sudden come into ~$62million worth of coins just like that...what luck. To that point, I don't think that those 1933's are the most expensive coin out there (at least so far the highest coin ever sold at auction). Aren't there like 3 of the first silver dollars ever minted (in like the 1780's) that if ever came to auction would crush any previous record?

Third, I was over at PCGS looking at stuff randomly, and stumbled on the write up of the '64 Kennedy SMS's:

"Jaime Hernandez: Plain and simple, the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half's are not suppose to exist. However, there are about a dozen or so examples which have surfaced in the past 15 years. Therefore, it is the scarcest non error or variety Kennedy Half Dollar in existence.

The 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half dollars display very unique characteristics unseen on any other coins of the era. First of all, the strike is very sharp as it displays very clear details on both the obverse and the reverse. The coins also contain a smooth satin like appearance with the rims being very square and sharp. There are die polishing lines throughout the coins surfaces. These coins also tend to lack contact marks unlike business strike coins, indicating that they were struck and handled under extreme care. Furthermore, the coins do not display the reflective surfaces that are usually encountered on proof coins.

These 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half’s were first noticed in 1993 when they appeared in a Stacks auction. Apparently, the coins originated from Lester Merkin who was a well known coin dealer. His collection was later consigned to Stacks. It is also believed that Lester Merkin initially acquired the coins from a Mint employee or Eva Adams who was former Director of the U.S. Mint.

Coincidentally, there are also other Special Strike coins in different denominations that exist for this date. These include the Lincoln cent, Jefferson nickel, Roosevelt dime and the Washington quarter. There is also about one or two dozen sets believed to exist for each of these denominations.

In numismatics there are also other coins which are not supposed to exist, such as the 1933 Saint Gaudens double eagles and the 1913 Liberty nickels. It also took years before some of these coins ever surfaced, and the entire circumstances in how they eluded the U.S Mint is also a complete mystery. Although, the 1964 Special Strike coins are not necessarily in the same league as other classic rarities, they do tend to have the same mysterious history behind them. The fact there are also very little examples of these coins in existence and much cheaper than other legendary coins, only makes them much more desirable to a lot of collectors.

As of September 2009, PCGS has only certified 12 examples of the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half Dollars in all grades combined. In conclusion, this also makes it the scarcest of all the 1964 Special Strike coin denominations produced."

And, this at PCGS on the SMS '64 Penny:

"1964 Special Strike Coins

There are many different theories on why the 1964 SMS coins were produced. These coins could have been produced as prototypes for the 1965 to 1967 SMS coins. The 1964 SMS coins could have also been produced as introductory pieces, possibly even intended to include a 1964-D Peace dollar. Furthermore, it is believed these SMS coins came into existence somehow through the involvement of Eva Adams, U.S. Mint Director at the time. After Eva Adams passed away, her estate was sold off and well-recognized dealer and auctioneer Lester Merkin purchased many of the coins from her estate. Lester Merkin's collection was then sold in a Stack's auction in the early 1990s, including some, if not all, of the known 1964 SMS coins."

What the hell, I didn't know this existed!!!! This puts a whole new spin on the pricing of these coins. There are similar write ups on the quarter/dime/nickel/penny!!!

It's now obvious that Eva Adams walked these '64 prototype strikes out of the mint. But of course, you can do that with impunity when your the Director! With that said, she never tried to sell them, again, she died with them in storage then sold to Merkin after the death from her estate. Its very obvious these SMS's are early prototype runs of the '64 sets. It's also very obvious she knew the value of them by the mere fact she took them from the mint!

Back to valuation, most all of these coins were auctioned by HA from the initial sell off of Merkin's collection. Of course the bigger coin of the Kennedy half is more telling of the value of Ike prototype. So, the '64 SMS67 sold at HA in '10 for $16k (pop 6). Funny that 1 year earlier a '64 SMS68 only sold for $10.3k, oh my, that's great appreciation. So we believe that the Ike's are worth more than the Kennedys as their a real silver dollar? Plus, that 5 years old now, so add maybe $3-4k, so $20k is a real good round #!!!

Oh ya, by the way, there has been subsequent offers on the SMS67 Kennedy @ HA of $19k+! That in my mind make the Ike's a possible $23k-25k coin!

So, Im going to contact Jamie @ PCGS to see if we can get a write up for the IKE Prototypes! Feel free to contact him to flag him on the proper petagree of these coins.

rtc535
As for contacting Jamie, understand that these coins could very well be special strikes solely for National Publications such a s CoinAge.

I have a magazine which shows an IKE Dollar that looks remarkably similar to what we are referring to as Prototypes.
CoinAge June 71 First Proof Dollar Since-03A.jpg
Close Up Scans of the above supposed "Proof":
CoinAge June 71 First Proof Dollar Since-04D.jpg
CoinAge June 71 First Proof Dollar Since-05D.jpg
The point being that calling these Prototype's is undocumented speculation since the designs are new. However, it is a known fact that the US Mint prepared "Special Strikes" for coins destined for the National Numismatic Collection as noted by the Aug 5th 2013 edition of Coin World.
20130805 Coin World Smithsonian NNC Coins-01.jpg
Bottom Line, WE nor anybody else knows exactly what these pieces might be or where they have been for so many years.
Did I mention the fact that the Eisenhower Dollar doesn't need yet another self inflicted "blackeye" by the folks doing the research?

Remember when the 1971-D RDV-006 was referred to as a "Pattern"?

Prototype is a good name but it's really unverified speculation.
Last edited by 19Lyds on Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by 19Lyds »

rtc535 wrote:
19Lyds wrote: As for contacting Jamie, understand that these coins could very well be special strikes solely for National Publications such a s CoinAge.

I have a magazine which shows an IKE Dollar that looks remarkably similar to what we are referring to as Prototypes.

The point being that calling these Prototype's is undocumented speculation since the designs are new. However, it is a known fact that the US Mint prepared "Special Strikes" for coins destined for the National Numismatic Collection as noted by the Aug 5th 2013 edition of Coin World.

Bottom Line, WE nor anybody else knows exactly what these pieces might be or where they have been for so many years.
Ok, sure, I see it as 2 things can be equally true. The strikes are prototype strikes, as the article from the Ike book states to test die strength and durability and coin asthetics. But, it may also be true these coins were struck for advertising as they were the coins they had lying around at the time for promotional purposes. They could have taken these dies and acid etched and polished the fields and made proofs from them also, but they did not (I speculate they didn't want to take the time to do that for these few coins).

As for the coins at the NNC, those are still from the '50s to '79. Again, I think you making my point for me. These are dates that the mint was still doing test/prototype strikes the old fashion way ie hand working dies before modern machining of dies. Now you just use a CAD generated pic and the 6-axis CNC bangs out your dies, its that easy now. Um, I haven't seen any of these kinds of SMS/prototype/test strikes after the '70s. The mint still does test strikes, but I guess they call them "mules", like the Sacagawea mules with the Washington quarter obverse. But those coins don't look like these with fine polish lines and hand worked details and fields.

And to make my final point, Lets presume your right, and the coins were sent to CoinWorld for promotional purposes. The mint knows these are special coins and should never leave the mint!!!! Your telling me they just left them there for the magazine to do with what they want??? I find that highly un-probable. And even if they did, your also telling me that the magazine experts didn't know these coins where special and not like business or proof strikes???? Really! Then your also inferring that the magazine experts just tossed the coins out for you and myself to find in a pile of 100 other Ikes at a coin show or dumb luck in a Ebay auction. Mmmmm, all three of those things happening is very un-likely to me. Unless you have information otherwise, maybe the magazine photographer went the mint to shoot the photos for the layout? That may be as likely as the mint sending known prototypes to the magazine. I guess I error on the side of the guys at CoinWorld having a bit more knowledge about rare coins, and would see these coins for what they would have been worth, even in the '70s not to just throw them out on whim.

Now, Im not so naive either about the mint letting known valuable coins out when it suits there needs. The Nixon presentation Ikes are an example, and as is the designer of the Sacagawea coins. They gave her (if memory serves) 2000 special mint mark coins for her winning design. Well shes cashing in on those coins big time, as there quite valuable now. I believe shell make ~$1.5 million on those when its all said and done.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Nobody questioned my pricing model. Guess that stands up, why not!
rtc535
rtc535 wrote:"Your telling me they just left them there for the magazine to do with what they want???"
Read my post again. I never said that. what I said was: ".......understand that these coins could very well be special strikes solely for National Publications such a s CoinAge." The inference there was that the coins were produced for photographic purposes and rightfully returned to the US Mint.
rtc535 wrote:"your also telling me that the magazine experts didn't know these coins where special and not like business or proof strikes????"
I said no such thing but, now that you mention it, I believe that this is EXACTLY the case.
Obviously the photographed coin is not a proof yet the magazine reefer's to it as a "proof". Given the fact that this particular magazine carries the date of June 1971 and we know for a fact that the proof IKE's weren't manufactured until August 1971 at the latest, the authors of the magazine had no idea what the coin was which the US Mint forwarded to them or perhaps hand carried to them for the story. Remember, a June 1971 publishing date usually indicates a March or April time frame for text and layout along with a few weeks for actual printing and then distribution. These magazines weren't popped out overnight like they are today. These were printed and BOUND (i.e. no staples).

It is completely possible that the Magazine hadn't even SEEN a 1971 or 1971-D IKE when this story was written. As such, no, they had no idea what they were looking at as they, more than likely, had no other Eisenhower Dollars for comparison.
rtc535 wrote:"Now, Im not so naive either about the mint letting known valuable coins out when it suits there needs. The Nixon presentation Ikes are an example, and as is the designer of the Sacagawea coins. They gave her (if memory serves) 2000 special mint mark coins for her winning design. Well shes cashing in on those coins big time, as there quite valuable now. I believe shell make ~$1.5 million on those when its all said and done."
Has it been "verified" that each of the Nixon Presentation IKE's is in fact a Type 1 Reverse 1971-S Coin? I know that he fella Andy bought his from has not commented one way or the other with regard to this even though he supposedly had multiple examples.

As for the Sacagawea Dollar and Glenna Goodacre? Yes, your memory is faulty. The cash award for a winning coin design was $5,000. Why the US Mint chose to pay her in "burnished" Sacagawea dollars (I,e, not special mint marks) is unknown to all other than Philip Doehl and/or Glenna Goodacre. I know for a fact that the folks at Tebo Coin in Boulder Colorado brokered the submission of 2500 of the coins to ICG (then located in Englewood, Colorado) for Ms. Goodacre. Actually, I believe that all 5,000 were submitted but only the latter 2500 were sold at auction. Was it Glenna Goodacre's intent on getting MORE for her work than the original $5,000? Was she counseled by someone else about the possibility of what could occur with 5,000 specially produced coins? Did she plant a bug in Philip Diehl's ear? Did Mr. Diehl think this up himself? I don't know.
However, lumping Ms. Goodacre's $5,000 award into the same arena as "the mint letting known valuable coins out" kinda is naïve.

I say that because I could almost guarantee that if Brad Pitt decided to autograph some Lincoln Cent Labels for PCGS to slab that each of those coins would auction out for hundreds of dollars each. Would they have been polished up (burnished) would not matter. What matters is that tey would have been his coin(s).

Glenna Goodacre "won" a $5,000 award for the winning Sacagawea Design and she requested that she be paid in the coin which she designed. THAT is what added value to the pieces because, if I recall correctly, neither ICG, ANACS nor NGC would put a grade on the pieces submitted since they were burnished "post minting" and as such were considered "damaged".
2000-P Glenna Goodacre ICG No. 2355 of 5000 Presentation Piece Slab ObvD.jpg
The "sole" intent of my original post regarding contacting PCGS about "your" coin was to be cautious in what you assert as "fact" since there are really no "facts" revolving around these pieces except for the fact that they share a common reverse design which until 2008, had never been identified and documented. Anything else regarding the creation of these pieces is pure speculation because as sure as someone says that something is an "absolute" fact, somebody will provide evidence that it is NOT an absolute fact.

Especially if PCGS starts tooting a horn.

It would be nice if our coins were priced similar to the 1964 Kennedy SMS Coins but I doubt that the popularity is there at this point in time. My guess is that one of these "might" get $15 grand in a public auction provided you could get a good write up and received the blessing of one or more PCGS Gods.

Oh, maybe more with David Halls blessing. Maybe a lot more.

You see, most of us avid enthusiasts just don't have that kind of money laying around. At least I don't. So, to get the deep pocket folks interested is going to take the word of some fairly heavy numismatic hitters.

Otherwise, it's just another purty coin.
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by goldbill »

Great find and excellent investgative skills.

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by 19Lyds »

Here's an enlargement of the gouge on IKE's Neck:

What happened to posting pictures on this site?
I cannot and will not be held responsible for my typing errors as it appears that there is a bug in the keyboard!
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by rtc535 »

oh, I missed this. All the photos in this thread were hosted by Comcast. They shut down the user website sections, so all the pics are gone. I still have them on my computer. I probably wont repost them, because you can see high res photos of the coin at PCGS. If anyone has a request for a particular photo, you can PM me, Ill send what I can upon request.

As an update, Ive emailed PCGS for a more detailed writeup of the coin from the appropriate personal their, but of course there replies and shown their uninterested in doing any research so far to do that. Maybe one day.

RTC535

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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by Irish2ice »

I'd love for you to post all the pics here, but if not, could you please post the direct link to PCGS??
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Re: Pertty sure Ive found a `71-S Prototype Silver Ike....

Post by Apollo »

Dear rtc-535:

First, I don't know your name so sorry about that (grin).

That said, I sent you a private message so please take a look,
and I look forward to hearing back from you!

Thanks!

David

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